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Aurornis 19 hours ago [-]
The sub-headline adds important context:
> U.S. still top destination as desire to migrate falls worldwide
So the US is still the top destination by a wide margin. Part of the decline is attributable to a global drop in desire to migrate at all.
Recent politics is undoubtedly part of it, but if you assumed the US had fallen behind other countries you should probably read the article.
culi 18 hours ago [-]
That subheadline is more misleading than the actual headline.
The average worldwide is down but that downward trend is largely due to the US. Canada and Japan are up and most other countries are about the same. UK is the only other own with a notable downward trend
swyx 18 hours ago [-]
just cite the numbers guys.
US market share of global desire to migrate
2007 - 24%
2016 - 20%
2017 - 18%
2025 - 15%
Canada is #2 and moved up from 7% to 9%
Gray0Ed 18 hours ago [-]
Taking the countries from the report.
2025 per capita, Est. Would-Be Migrants / Country Population, top 4 + US and UK:
Canada: 2.18
Australia: 1.47
Saudi Arabia: 1.17
Spain: 0.82
UK: 0.58
USA: 0.44
2025 per GDP, Est. Would-Be Migrants / Nominal GDP, top 5:
USA: $85.4k
Australia: $65.8k
Germany: $55.7k
Canada: $54.2k
UK: $52.6k
weberer 12 hours ago [-]
What's the point of normalizing per capita for the destination country?
swyx 5 hours ago [-]
i guess indicates the amount of "load" the destination country would have if they said yes to everyone. >1 is certainly too much
bestouff 13 hours ago [-]
Yeah, as usual. Now treat the EU as one block and look at your numbers.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
The UK's downward trend has vert different timing. The sharp fall was in the early 2010s
metabagel 19 hours ago [-]
Did you look at the charts? The U.S. dropped precipitously, while other countries mostly stayed in the same range.
Aurornis 19 hours ago [-]
The UK also dropped precipitously if we’re looking at relative decreases.
Most other countries on the chart didn’t change much because going from 4% to 5% is in the noise.
The US started at a whopping 24% and ended at a number that’s still significantly higher than other countries.
As I said, politics played a role for sure, but when I read the comments before the article I expected to read about the US falling out of favor relative to other countries, which it has not.
culi 18 hours ago [-]
The point is that "desire to migrate worldwide is down" is misleading because that downward trend is almost entirely due to the US. Most other countries are the same and Canada and Japan are even up.
conductr 18 hours ago [-]
This. Wanting to migrate isn’t a universal binary desire, it’s conditional. There is a cohort of people that wanted to migrate to the US and when that desire changes they do not wish to migrate at all. They don’t look for alternatives migration points, so the US and UK are moving the average downward.
PorciiVorbesc 17 hours ago [-]
>and Canada and Japan are even up
Because every H1B who planned to migrate to the US but got locked out by Trump is choosing Canada as the next best thing. That makes Canada sloppy seconds after the US, not more desirable than the US, assuming everything else being equal.
advael 7 hours ago [-]
I think "relative to other countries" it has fallen out of favor quite a lot. That's the story the data tell, unambiguously. What it didn't do is fall behind other countries in absolute terms, but in relative terms it did
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
If you look at the charts, the UK fell sharply around 2010, a bit more around 1026 - 2020 or so, and then recovered slightly. Lots of other countries had had sharp drops at some point (e.g. Japan around 2010) but the US drop seems more significant given its a far greater number to start with. France going from 5 to 4 is not really comparable with the US going from 24 to 15 over the same period.
onraglanroad 18 hours ago [-]
The UK dropping isn't surprising because of Brexit. It makes far more sense to move to an EU country.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
Only if you are from an EU country.
If you look at the chart most of the decline happened before the Brexit vote, let alone Brexit. Since the brexit vote it has dropped from 5% to 4% which is not precipitous.
onraglanroad 18 hours ago [-]
No, it makes sense to get into an EU country because it gives you access to so many more countries.
My niece was thinking of working in Ireland for a while and I told her that if she happened to stay for 5 years she could get an EU passport. It's a valuable thing.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
On the other hand the UK speaks English and has strong ties with a lot of ex-colonies. Very few of those people would want to learn another language (maybe their third) to move to the EU (Ireland being the possible exception).
As a first generation (just - I was six years old!) immigrant I am quite happy my parents (my dad's employer gave him a choice) picked the UK over the US, and I cannot think of anywhere that would be better for me.
Moving countries has hard - having done it a few times. Even going to places where you known people and know the system.
wolvoleo 18 hours ago [-]
Also the anti-immigrant sentiment that was exposed by Brexit is holding people back.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
Maybe for a white European immigrant.
Looking at the rise of parties like AfD, National Rally, PVV etc. the EU is far more hostile to non-white immigrants.
I don’t think it’s so binary. Russians are white but certainly not welcome in most of Europe. Fillipinos are not white, but of christian background - very highly regarded. Many africans are of christian, yet probably not making the cut because of cultural background. And yes in some places people are still kinda freaked out by skin color (I’m from baltics and while people most recognise their biases - they are still there).
graemep 3 hours ago [-]
In the UK, the racists would definitely prefer Russians over Filipinos. I can understand why this would be different in the Baltics!
Its generally nothing to do with religion, apart from hostility to Islam. Its not hostility to non-Christians, its hostility to Muslims. What those sorts of people say about Muslims is very similar to what they said about Jews a 100 years ago, or about Catholics 200 years ago. Neither of those prejudices has entirely died (I read an article by a Labour politician whose colleagues used to ask whether he was waiting for orders from Rome) but its at nothing like historical levels.
Mostly talk of religion is a cover for talking about skin colour. Its also an attempt to import American style "Christian" nationalism which i think is going to fail because the UK does not have the same history, culture, or religion as the US: https://pietersz.co.uk/2026/10/christian-nationalism.
A lot of these people are "cultural Christians" which pretty much anyone can be. The range of "cultural Christian" goes from Richard Dawkins to Anders Breivik!
wolvoleo 6 hours ago [-]
I don't think it's as much a factor of religion. Europe is mostly atheist these days.
wolvoleo 17 hours ago [-]
Not really, it seems a lot more extreme in Britain. We don't have anything like that unite the kingdom rally.
graemep 3 hours ago [-]
Very few people vote for the people running those parties. If you look at Restore's vote share compared to the EU ones I mentioned its far higher.
Reform polls higher than Restore but it turned down Elon Musk's money because it came with the condition that they allow the best known of the Unite the Kingdom leaders to join their party. Either it is to their credit, or they realise that voters would turn against them if they let him in.
The second Unite the Kingdom rally was less than half the size of the first: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/16/tommy-robin... My guess is that people went to the first as an anti-illegal immigration and asylum seeker protest and and as people have realised the real aims of the people behind it support has dropped.
>the EU is far more hostile to non-white immigrants.
EU nations accepted millions of non-white migrants, especially post 2015 open border policy.
rebolek 18 hours ago [-]
One can wonder why UK dropped. Hm, what could be the reason?
al_borland 18 hours ago [-]
The others are in the low single-digits. There isn’t anywhere to go, except off the list entirely.
jandrewrogers 19 hours ago [-]
I wonder how much the global population getting older influences the desire to migrate.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
Maybe people are better informed?
When living in a country that had a very high per capita emigration rate, I realised a lot of people had a very rosy tinted view of the rest of the world and their prospects there.
1. Legal immigrants - mostly need skills or money (sometimes family ties or ancestry). They are mostly better off building a better life where they are.
2. Illegal immigrants - still need money (for people smugglers), get the worst jobs once they get there, and its a huge risk. They are also usually better off building a better life where they are.
Unless fleeing war or severe persecution most people are better off where they are these days.
Also, as someone in another comment said, the world is wealthier as a whole and there are more opportunities in many places.
DragonStrength 18 hours ago [-]
Wealthier and more connected too.
AnnikaL 18 hours ago [-]
The decline seems to be much sharper for the US than other countries. Given the way that the current government has been arbitrarily revoking student visas, making it more difficult to get work visas, blocking green card application, etc., it seems reasonable that fewer people would want to immigrate to the US.
atoav 18 hours ago [-]
Yes, but the US is bigger. Now do US vs rest of the world for example. Or take Europe as a continent and not many countries. We can draw arbitrary lines on maps and the bigger area will tend to have more migrants within it just because it is bigger. To make a fair assessment we probably need to do migrants per capita or migrants per square kilometers.
I did the math on the latter. Higher numbers mean more migration per km² of land, I made US 100% to allow easy relative comparison:
United Kingdom 1076
Germany 918
Japan 694
Italy 653
Spain 519
France 407
United States 100
Saudi Arabia 91
Canada 59
Australia 34
Now we can also do the same for per capita (which is a bit paradoxical, because that means bigger populations will get a lower index, but migration increases populations...), but that tells us where the smallest populations have to deal with the biggest number of migrants:
Canada 494
Australia 333
Saudi Arabia 193
Spain 186
Germany 136
France 132
United Kingdom 131
Italy 115
United States 100
Japan 73
As you can see the US is very close to the bottom on both of those lists.
Now if we wanted to make that even fairer it would probably be good to have a metric of migrants per km of built-on or habitable land or something to avoid skewing results for countries with a whole lot of inhabitable nothing in some areas. Canada and Australia are on the bottom in the first list (big countries with little population in comparison to their size) while they are on top in the per capita list.
As you can see it isn't as easy as it seems at first. What do we want to look at? Is it about land use? Is it about how big of a fraction is migrants? Or do we want to look at migrant per USD of GDP to see who would have the best/worst capacity to support migrants? Maybe we want to look at job markets?
All of that changes as you want to change the story, but what does not make sense is to just use absolute numbers based on national borders.
jasonlotito 19 hours ago [-]
> Part of the decline is attributable to a global drop in desire to migrate at all.
That's not what the article suggests at all.
The drop is calculated only from those who want to move.
Yes, it's still #1, but the drop that isn't a result of people not wanting to move. Instead, people that want to move are picking the US as the destination a lot less.
graemep 18 hours ago [-]
The two might be linked.
A drop in the desire to emigrate might have had a higher impact on groups who would have preferred the US, for example.
jasonlotito 16 hours ago [-]
First, "might" wasn't the assertion.
Second, if you're right, that's worse.
smrtinsert 16 hours ago [-]
Let's skip the exceptionalism and go straight to the numbers next time.
Daishiman 19 hours ago [-]
If you live in a shithole the US will obviously be an improvement by comparison. But that's not news and ultimately meaningless.
The concern is that smart, productive, capable people now have better alternatives.
sublinear 19 hours ago [-]
What are the options you're weighing right now?
Daishiman 18 hours ago [-]
I'm quite happy where I live. Colleagues that are in academics are going to Europe and some are going to China. Software guys are staying home and getting the opportunities to come to them through offshoring.
profsummergig 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
card_zero 18 hours ago [-]
I parsed it as daishi man, and looked up daishi on Wikipedia instead. Daishi could be his own Japanese surname, a DJ, a rugby player, a sumo wrestler, or could represent the fact that he went on the Shikoku Pilgrimage of 88 temples like the monk Kobo Daishi. Though in that case I think daishi just means "a virtuous and strong monk", per Wiktionary.
Daishiman 18 hours ago [-]
I am laughing at the fact that people are trying to parse meaning from a username handle.
dofm 18 hours ago [-]
Iman means faith as well — Daish/Dayesh/Daysh means (or is etymologically assocatied with) compassion?
You are clearly trying to suggest a much more specific, scurrilous interpretation.
Axsuul 18 hours ago [-]
Other countries are cracking down which makes desire to migrate less.
happosai 19 hours ago [-]
The only proven method of stopping immigration to your country: make your country such a shit hole nobody wants to move to it.
arjie 19 hours ago [-]
> The U.S. remains the most desired destination for people who would like to leave their own countries permanently, but Gallup's latest data show it is less attractive than it once was
If you look at the charts, it seems that if the US is a shithole, then Canada is twice the shit hole, and France and Germany are twice that.
In fact, it doesn’t appear that there are any non-shitholes using this metric.
I think the US should facilitate immigration by probably expanding the H1B 10x and reducing the period for a green card and also overturn Euclid v Amber and NEPA (with state level CEQA style to follow) but the reality is that even an immigration-resistant US administration is far more popular than any other country as a destination; and that’s probably simply due to the fact that it’s the one Western economy that is still dynamic despite everything.
lnenad 19 hours ago [-]
People are moving to the states not because it's a great country, it's because they're able to make money there. More money than in their home country. This of course is not an indicator of *general* attractiveness but it still makes the country itself attractive as most of the people are seeing more money as a way to have a better life.
Ajedi32 18 hours ago [-]
People are able to make a lot of money there because it's a great country.
TFNA 18 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure that logic is solid. Expats move to Saudi Arabia because they can make huge amounts of money in a short time. Is, therefore, Saudi Arabia "a great country"?
SamDc73 18 hours ago [-]
compared to the US, SA salaries are quite low
TFNA 16 hours ago [-]
Not necessarily in the industries that employ Western expats. After all, expats come because specialized labor is required, and specialized labor can command a higher salary. There are also perks like supplied accommodation (and sometimes a car) that lets one direct so much more money to savings.
einszwei 17 hours ago [-]
The important part is the trend. US is a great country today but it was greater a decade ago.
As someone who worked in US and left it long time back, last year was the first time I could hear ambivalent views on US from my friends who work there. They are still in US as they make a lot of money but have started to consider the alternatives.
lnenad 15 hours ago [-]
How do Dubai, SA, Qatar and similar fit into that picture?
rayiner 18 hours ago [-]
> People are moving to the states not because it's a great country, it's because they're able to make money there.
How are people with that mentality--here for the money, but don't buy into the underlying concepts--going to affect the civic structure of the U.S.?
tavavex 17 hours ago [-]
Probably not very much, considering the countries for which it's the easiest to pull off this type of move. Full naturalization naturally demands at least some commitment.
Here in Canada, before all this went down, the "work as a professional in the US, earn $$$$$, retire back in Canada or go back to a Canadian job with your pockets bursting with cash" was a fairly popular strategy in tech. I don't know how many people pulled it off in reality, but workers from either of our countries have/had some of the easiest pathways to working in the other one. I don't think either one is going to be very outraged at their neighbors coming over to work here.
autoexec 18 hours ago [-]
Just look at our government. It's not going great for us.
jgwil2 18 hours ago [-]
But this government was voted for by natives at a higher rate than by naturalized citizens. It seems odd to blame them for this.
autoexec 17 hours ago [-]
My point was that our current government is itself filled with people who are "here for the money, but don't buy into the underlying concepts" and it's been disastrous for the the civic structure of the country. I don't blame naturalized citizens specifically for electing our current administration, although many of them did. I suspect that some of those who didn't came here to get away from the kinds of corruption and abuse of authority we're seeing.
rayiner 18 hours ago [-]
According to Blue Rose Research’s 2024 post mortem, Trump narrowly won naturalized citizens. In a way that illustrates the problem.
The countries most immigrants come from have both liberals and conservatives. Immigration can’t change the long-term political balance. What it does instead is change what kind of left or right wing candidate is viable. The Bush/Romney GOP would have been wiped out in a landslide under 2024’s demographics. But Trump was able to win Nevada and rack up the margin in diverse states like Texas and Florida with stupid policies like “no taxes on tips.” Theatrics, handouts, and patronage is how politics works in most countries immigrants come from. Trump can play that game, the old Anglo GOP couldn’t.
Over time, American politics will more begin to resemble the politics of the places the immigrants are coming from, with guys like Mamdani instead of Carter and Trump instead of Reagan.
jgwil2 13 hours ago [-]
When somebody like Mamdani (obviously not him since he's not a native) wins a presidential primary maybe I'll concede your point. All recent Democratic nominees have resembled the "normal," centrist candidates of yore; only the Republican party has adopted the intolerant, "theatrical" third-world style of politics so far (in the figure of Trump), and again, natives have always voted for him at higher rates than naturalized citizens.
stasomatic 18 hours ago [-]
In absolute terms, you can make more money. In relative terms, you'll spend more.
lnenad 16 hours ago [-]
It doesn't scale linearly. You'd be underestimating how expensive it has become in most of the third world now-a-days. You'd be making 10x+ while spending a few times more. Spending also has a cap (depending on lifestyle). If you're in engineering your salary continues to grow with experience.
stasomatic 15 hours ago [-]
I don't know, man. For all intents and purposes, I live in a third world city state, Miami Florida. Everyone is angry, drivers are nuts, housing costs ~ x2 in less than a decade, etc. I haven't been to any third world countries, but I've been to Europe plenty and dread when returning back to the States. People seem to get by well, whatever I saw on the streets through my tourist glasses, the food tastes much much better and less expensive, and I wouldn't need 2 cars. Then there is the medical stuff and free education and more chill non-aggressive vibes. Same with our neighbors Canada. Here, it's a bloody deathmatch, last man standing.
For reference, I've for many years (35) lived in and around NYC/Brooklyn/New Jersey, LA, Las Vegas and Miami proper. Europe, I've been to Berlin, London, Paris, Strasbourg, Munich, and some I forget. It's a night and day difference and it baffles me that someone from there would want to live here. Cheers.
lnenad 14 hours ago [-]
I mean that's fair. I disagree as a European though :).
If you take a good SWE salary in Munich (example 80k), and compare it to an average/solid software shop in the states that gives 200k. Expenses can comparatively quadruple and you will still have much more at the end of the month to do with as you please. You can live in so many places in the states where this salary is realistic. But only a handful of places in Europe even have salaries that could come close as a concept. Switzerland that could get you there has even higher expenses and even there only FAANG offers such salaries.
And outside of software, doctors in the states make many multiples compared to European ones. Most blue collar workers make multiples, lawyers make multiples, pretty much any job you take you can make much more. I agree that life is better in Europe and I'd choose to live here 9/10 times, but that's down to mentality and the fact there's a reason we're less productive than you.
jltsiren 13 hours ago [-]
I've seen claims that the median full-time income is ~€4500/month in Germany. That's around $60k/year, or ~$70k/year after adjusting for purchasing power. Which is a bit more than the equivalent figure in the US.
Many jobs pay really well in the US, but many more pay poorly. The top 10% are responsible for ~50% of consumer spending, and the typical American is not that well off.
Germany, like many other European countries, relies more on exports and less on domestic demand than the US. As a natural consequence, its immigration policy favors skilled immigration to keep top wages down. If the wages grow too quickly, your exports become more expensive than those of your competitors, and the entire economy suffers. And when the economy grows, it's better to use the surplus to raise typical wages than top wages.
stasomatic 13 hours ago [-]
This is a rabbity rabbit hole, but I'll leave with that I'd rather be in Paris, Berlin or London, make less money, but be able to go downstairs to a caffe and take a walk on a side of Siene, Rhine or Thames with my dog. Then hop on a fast train and be elsewhere fast. That's living, for me, but it’s late and is a fantasy.
lnenad 4 hours ago [-]
I agree 100%.
ragall 19 hours ago [-]
Right. It stinks, but I can hold my nose for a whole while I make money. Pecunia non olet.
fifilura 19 hours ago [-]
Stats are skewed by size and geography of the country.
19 hours ago [-]
bryanlarsen 17 hours ago [-]
I don't think the OP is saying that the US is a shit-hole today. The US still has a lot of people who want to move there. By their definition, it's not a shit-hole yet. They're saying that US is going in the direction of becoming a shit-hole.
notabotiswear 19 hours ago [-]
This is an issue of trajectories. Perception of Canada and France has not shifted significantly in the observation period; the US dropped by an unambiguous 38%. So it's not about what the US was, it's about what it's become/becoming. An example of Newton's first law, if you will.
Or at least that's how I am interpreting the parent post...
newfriend 19 hours ago [-]
>expanding the H1B 10x
One of the worst ideas I've ever seen, and completely out of touch with American workers.
xingped 19 hours ago [-]
Pretty sure he's also an H1B or previously a visa worker. Indeed, insanely self-serving and out of touch.
xingped 19 hours ago [-]
Ah yes, just what we need, more H1Bs running around taking the jobs for which there are plenty of qualified unemployed Americans. That'll do wonders for us, I'm sure!
culi 18 hours ago [-]
The biggest drop is from SE Asia which is rapidly developing. I assume many more people wanna stay in their home countries or move to China instead
SamDc73 18 hours ago [-]
China isn't even mentioned as a destination at all. more people migrated to India than did to China ....
toast0 18 hours ago [-]
You don't even really need to have the military policing the capital and national police force shooting people in the streets. A significant economic downturn is enough to reduce immigration legal and otherwise.
From the graphs, it seems that knowledge of our non-dairy pavement is filtering through to other countries. But a longer term graph would be nice; I'd like to see how the indicator reacted over more economic cycles, but I know some visa categories that had been oversubscribed on opening day for years started staying open for most of the year when the mortgage crisis hit, and I'd love to see data from previous downturns, too.
pornel 19 hours ago [-]
Excuse me, Hole of America.
verdverm 19 hours ago [-]
abbreviated as the A-Hole country /s
conductr 18 hours ago [-]
You could sell that as a red hat to orange guy fans. You can have it made in China with a Sold in USA sticker and charge 2x. They’ll never notice the irony.
verdverm 18 hours ago [-]
I've got a bridge with a name on it to sell you, greatest deal ever, no ones seen anything like it before
wolvoleo 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah I would never ever move there. I had an offer just before Corona but naaah. The only reason I applied is that they advertised it as a local job at first.
While this administration is in place I don't even want to visit, even for work purposes I refuse. Especially the toxic manosphere culture at the moment.
I've lived in 4 countries but the US is not one that appeals to me. They pay the most but cost of living is also huge and besides that money isn't the most important to me. I'm making about 60% of what I would make in the same role in my home country. But that's ok because I enjoy living here a lot more.
What matters to me is quality of life, and a good social welfare system so I don't have to worry.
yodsanklai 15 hours ago [-]
> Especially the toxic manosphere culture at the moment.
The experience of living/traveling in the US is very different from what can be seen on social medias and forums. At least in big cities in blue states.
nxm 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dest 19 hours ago [-]
Mutual pleasure
wolvoleo 19 hours ago [-]
I don't really think it's doing fine, that's really the main reason I don't want to go.
forgetfreeman 19 hours ago [-]
If true then y'all have something in common.
metabagel 19 hours ago [-]
I wouldn't recommend visiting the U.S. right now. There isn't the concept of fairness or due process. You don't have rights here. It is now extremely important to be a U.S. citizen. Everyone else is at the mercy of the Trump administration.
This is a bit extreme.... and yes I know this admin is extreme but there are still millions who visit the US and have a perfectly normal time.
wolvoleo 19 hours ago [-]
Even as a US citizen you can have major issues at the border, like that guy with the grapheneos and his duress code.
In fact I think it would have worked out better if he hadn't been a US Citizen because they would have just sent him back and given him a lifetime entry ban or something.
ndiddy 18 hours ago [-]
I don't like how citizens are allowed to have their constitutional rights violated at border crossings, but that guy should have known better. The duress PIN feature is made for extreme situations where i.e. the owner of the phone is suddenly arrested and there's information on the phone that could get people they care about arrested or killed. It's for when the owner considers getting themselves criminally charged, killed, or disappeared to be a better option than giving up what's on the phone. For something routine like a border crossing, the better option is to wipe your devices prior to the crossing and throw them away if they get searched. If the guy had either done that or not given a PIN to CBP and left the phone with them, he would have gotten off scot free. Giving a duress PIN is a big choice and you have to be reasonably informed about the legal consequences of doing so in whatever jurisdiction you're in.
autoexec 18 hours ago [-]
> The duress PIN feature is made for extreme situations where i.e. the owner of the phone is suddenly arrested and there's information on the phone that could get people they care about arrested or killed.
Why do you think that doesn't apply to the situation he was in? He was suddenly arrested (detained anyway, so his freedom was taken from him) and he, as an activist, had contacts on his phone of other activists who would have been criminally charged, killed, or disappeared.
His own constitutionally protected activism already got him marked as a terrorist in the US. That's why he was detained. His name was on a terrorist watchlist. The Customs and Border Patrol tactical terrorism response team and an FBI Atlanta joint-terrorism taskforce officer were informed he was coming. The government has been actively working to prosecute and silence him and his fellow activists. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jun/26/trump-admini...
> Giving a duress PIN is a big choice and you have to be reasonably informed about the legal consequences of doing so in whatever jurisdiction you're in.
He was illegally denied access to a lawyer or he would have been reasonable informed.
ndiddy 15 hours ago [-]
> Why do you think that doesn't apply to the situation he was in? He was suddenly arrested (detained anyway, so his freedom was taken from him) and he, as an activist, had contacts on his phone of other activists who would have been criminally charged, killed, or disappeared.
Because he knew in advance that he would be crossing the border. If your threat model includes ensuring that US border control does not view the contents of your phone, and you're returning to the US after an international flight, then you need to take appropriate precautions (i.e. wiping your phone beforehand rather than after they've taken it). It's not like the police suddenly raided his house in the middle of the night. Obviously I feel bad for the guy, but if he had acted differently he would not have been criminally charged.
autoexec 18 hours ago [-]
> t is now extremely important to be a U.S. citizen. Everyone else is at the mercy of the Trump administration.
The Trump administration is perfectly happy to violate the rights of American citizens too. Nobody is safe right now.
Ritewut 19 hours ago [-]
I'm trying to get out of the US but every other country is also having their own anti-immigration moment right now.
wolvoleo 18 hours ago [-]
Also, these things work reciprocally. The more difficult the US is in admitting immigrants, the more pressure their citizens get too.
I remember when I went to Australia, I could stay a year but American backpackers only 6 months because that's what Australians got in the US.
viklove 18 hours ago [-]
Even today there's almost no place in the world that is as accepting to immigrants as compared to the US.
Ritewut 18 hours ago [-]
That depends on what you mean by accepting. Culturally or legally? Legally the immigration process to the US has always been one of the hardest and the bureaucracy around it is a nightmare.
16 hours ago [-]
dlisboa 18 hours ago [-]
I can name quite a few in South America alone. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, etc.
"Accepting" is different from "tolerating with a few instances of hate crimes and likelihood of incarceration". You have to include non-white people in the acceptance criteria.
PorciiVorbesc 16 hours ago [-]
>I can name quite a few in South America alone. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, etc.
And which of those are as desirable for foreigners to come work in, as the US?
It's easy to be super open to migration when you have little migration to begin with and the one you get is mostly wealthy foreigners coming to invest/buy properties and vacation/retire/remote-work there.
srid 16 hours ago [-]
Canada, on the other hand, favours high skill immigration right now,
What countries have you tried to move to that rejected you & why?
Ritewut 11 hours ago [-]
I haven't been rejected to any. I'm just monitoring changing requirements and sentiment in other countries, primarily Asia and parts of Europe. If you have suggestions for countries I'm open to them.
k__ 19 hours ago [-]
Isn't that what the US wants? I mean, at least this ICE stuff happened doesn't seem very inviting.
JuniperMesos 18 hours ago [-]
It's what a huge proportion of the US population wants, yes. And many of the people who are in the US and who are counted in the number of people in the US are themselves immigrants or closely socially connected to recent immigrants - one of the justifications for blanket immigration restrictionism is precisely that once an immigrant is physically in the country, they start affecting the democratic political process that decides what policies will be, including further immigration policy.
settsu 18 hours ago [-]
> huge proportion of the US population wants
Thinks they want (where "think" is doing some massive heavy lifting because it's simply factual that wide swaths of voters have demonstrably exercised very little "thinking".)
klipt 19 hours ago [-]
The current admin definitely wants to look tough on immigration.
Opinions among actual Americans vary. Some blue states even issue driver licenses to unauthorized immigrants on the basis that it's better for them to pass the driving test than to drive without taking the test.
Larrikin 18 hours ago [-]
The administration wants to look tough on the "wrong" skin color
rayiner 18 hours ago [-]
It's based on the state of the countries they came from, not skin color.
jgwil2 18 hours ago [-]
Is that why white South Africans are being welcomed as refugees?
rayiner 17 hours ago [-]
Yes. It’s also why the right loves Japan and, increasingly, China.
autoexec 17 hours ago [-]
It's almost as if racists view certain kinds of Asians as a sort of "model minority".
rayiner 16 hours ago [-]
Why would they view certain asians as a "model minority?" Are they deciding based on cranial measurements? Or is it because Japan, China, etc., are orderly and developed--in which case it's not about "race" at all, is it?
autoexec 10 hours ago [-]
Because it's allowed them to dismiss the issues of institutional racism that exist in our country by claiming that because some races are more successful than others, there's no reason for American society to change. That those other races are less successful due to their inherent inferior nature.
The truth is that there is nothing inherently superior or more "orderly and developed" about the people of Japan and China than the black Americans, Hispanics, and other Asians in this country. Culture and class vary significantly within populations and nations, even small island nations like Japan. US Immigration policies have selected for unrepresentative samples from certain populations though. The costs and accessibility of getting to the US from somewhere like Mexico are nothing at all like they are for people in countries on the far side of the Earth. Other distortions arise due to circumstance and need, for example refugees and manual laborers more frequently come from some regions, and very rarely from others.
There's no point in trying to dig too deeply for gems of logic and consistency when it comes to racist ideology though. You can only be left disappointed.
rayiner 9 hours ago [-]
You’re coming up with all this theory and labeling to avoid the simpler conclusion that the right’s views are just based on looking at the country immigrants are coming from. That’s the proof of the pudding. (Selective immigration obviously has nothing to do with that.) The right likes Japan and, increasingly, China because they are orderly and developed countries and doesn't like Bangladesh because it isn't. It’s not because they’ve concocted some rubric of cranial measurements under which one group is “model minorities” and the others aren’t.
18 hours ago [-]
Larrikin 18 hours ago [-]
No thanks rayiner
scoofy 17 hours ago [-]
I mean, there is a big grey area between immigrants here who are:
undocumented and here temporarily (most people oppose this),
undocumented and here permanently (the left is split on this, the right is mostly against it),
documented and here temporarily (most people are fine with this, especially tourists),
documented and here temporarily with an option to become permanently (many oppose this because it's impacting employment, especially with H-1B abuse),
documented and here permanently with no intention of becoming citizens (many people on the right don't like this for assimilation reasons),
documented and here permanently an a path to citizenship (most people support this except the extreme right),
former immigrants who are now citizens (nearly everyone supports these people).
The problem is that all of this is put under a single umbrella called "immigration," but it includes so many sub-issue like rule of law and assimilation preferences that you can't have a serious debate on it.
doom2 10 hours ago [-]
The other thing making it difficult to have a serious debate about is that one portion of the population keeps getting asked to moderate their positions on immigration (in all its facets) while there is little to no similar pressure on the opposing group. To put it another way: why should I move towards the center (from my "left" position) when I see the right continue to push immigration policy to the extremes?
settsu 18 hours ago [-]
It's absolutely what some powerful and well-funded people are actively pursuing.
They want a Autocratic Theocracy AKA God's Chosen One-ocracy (and take a wild guess at which demographic gets to decide who the chosen one is...)
gregates 18 hours ago [-]
The ICE stuff is extremely unpopular. Most of the people who voted for it did not understand they were doing so. If "the US" is the people, then no, they mostly do not want this. If "the US" is Trump, then yes, it is.
This is also the most important political question in the US right now. Are the people still sovereign?
"Deporting all immigrants who are here illegally" was polling at 55% approve/45% disapprove as recently as July.
starfallg 18 hours ago [-]
The issue is that people's idea of illegal immigrants are hardened criminals living a lift of crime, whereas in reality the majority of people that are being deported are normal people that overstayed their visa, ie. the low hanging fruit. So people can be both supportive of the policy but dismayed at the implementation, which is what we are broadly seeing here.
rayiner 18 hours ago [-]
The Harvard-Harris survey linked above asks separately about “deporting immigrants who are here illegally and have committed crimes.” Support for that was at 78% in July.
There was opposition to Noem’s theatrics. But it seems like Mullen’s quieter approach has taken the heat off and most of the focus now is on the shit inflation and Iran war.
This is not true. Maybe it's unpopular in your circles, but deporting illegal aliens is broadly popular with the American public.
empath75 18 hours ago [-]
Deporting illegal aliens might be popular as an abstract concept but as soon as the question is about deporting actual people that they know, their opinion changes. It’s great politics to say you’re going to do it, but bad politics and a moral atrocity to _actually_ do it.
The only ethical way to do it is better security at the border and making legal immigration and visits much easier. You can’t just snatch people who are established in communities and put them into camps without leading to a thoroughly justified moral outrage.
autoexec 18 hours ago [-]
I think that it's possible to deport people while still treating them with dignity and respect, without keeping them in horrific conditions, without sending them to random dangerous countries they've never been to, without murdering innocent citizens and non-citizens, and while affording the people you remove legal due process.
Our current president has intentionally created a system designed to be cruel, brutal, and unfair because his supporters get off on it and because every abuse of power makes his next abuse easier, but even though some people will inevitability be upset when the illegal immigrants in their lives are removed from the country, it doesn't have to be a complete moral atrocity to enforce immigration law. The way it's being done today is a choice.
newfriend 14 hours ago [-]
Deporting someone who broke the law is not a moral atrocity. Is it unethical to arrest and jail a bank robber who has established themselves in a community?
These people knowingly and deliberately broke the law, and they continue to deliberately elude enforcement. The problem is that we've been too soft on enforcement, leading to millions upon millions of them assuming they are exempt from the law.
rayiner 19 hours ago [-]
Gallup does this survey regularly, and I think perhaps the most interesting thing on the chart is how few people in south and east asia (around 10%) want to leave even if they had the opportunity to do so. I think that says something about the psychology of people who do leave their countries.
glimshe 19 hours ago [-]
They could also have phrased that as "Ability to move Permanently to U.S. for those who want to is at New Low"
throwaway_new_1 18 hours ago [-]
I’d say majority of the population that this is looking at falls into 3 categories : developing to developed nation, developed to developed, developing to developing.
Most people from developing to developed probably still are interested. Their interests may have shifted to better visa opportunities.
But those from developed to developed has probably decreased cause of job security problems globally in developed countries. People probably don’t want to leave their current state in this market.
The developing to developing is probably the same.
mvcosta91 19 hours ago [-]
The only way I’d ever set foot in the US is if Brazil decided to extradite me. Luckily, we don't extradite our own citizens.
stasomatic 18 hours ago [-]
1/4 of my building complex in Miami is Brazilian, the rest is from other LatAm countries and Russians and Ukrainians. Barely any natives. Tower(s) of Babel. I guess our favelas are a bit safer... yet.
dominotw 18 hours ago [-]
oh no what is usa going to do now.
tom910 16 hours ago [-]
I can understand why, because I am in the same situation, working by working visa here. Immigration to the US is only possible for highly motivated people in the US, but unfortunately it doesn't intersect with the best people, so they migrate to other countries that have good immigration policies for high-skill workers.
So far getting green cards is almost closed for software engineers. Because to get it from H1B/L1 visas, you need to pass a market test, but it isn't possible right now. So, the only available option is EB2-NIW, but it is a lottery. I only hope that companies will start to hire more outside the US
jmyeet 15 hours ago [-]
I'm a naturalized US citizen who came here on a work visa originally so I get it.
We are however in very different times. In the 2010s, they couldn't employ enough software engineers. Now? There's permanent layoffs. Every year all these companies now lay off 5-10% of their employees. It's become the "up or out" culture of Corporate America.
The only reason they do this is to suppress wages. They want to claw back the gains of the 2010s. Every sufficiently sized company reaches a point where the only way they can continue to grow profits is to cut costs and raise prices. Labor is a huge cost.
Despite supposed protections, it's clear that people on work visas get paid less. There's an inherent lack of mobility and the consequences of getting fired or laid off and not being able to find a job are extreme: depending on what type of visa you have you may have to leave the country within as little as 10 days (but typically 60).
So I think companies should lose their ability to not only sponsor green cards but also hire nonresidents if they engage in layoffs for a certain period. I'm thinking 2-3 years.
The employment situation for software engineers is now dire, unlike a decade ago, so it actually makes sense to curtail foreign employment.
bryanlarsen 19 hours ago [-]
I'm surprised that "Northern America" was only 4% in 2024. It feels like a huge percentage of Canadians used to move to America. Maybe everybody who wanted to move already has?
fullstop 19 hours ago [-]
The Canadians that I know who have been living in the USA are all making plans to or have already returned to Canada. Some of them have been here for 20+ years, became American Citizens, the whole deal. And now they just want to get off the crazy train.
I have to imagine that their sentiment is not unique.
jacquesm 18 hours ago [-]
All of the Canadians that I know that moved to the US have moved back. I'm sure there are still plenty that live there but in my circle that's pretty much over.
1vuio0pswjnm7 16 hours ago [-]
Desire to Migrate to the U.S. Across Regions, 2024 vs. 2025
X.1 2024 2025 Change
% % (pct. pts.)
Southeast Asia 18% 12% -6
Latin America and the Caribbean 33% 28% -5
Australia-New Zealand 11% 7% -4
Sub-Saharan Africa 27% 24% -3
Northern America 4% 2% -2
European Union 7% 6% -1
Former Soviet States 13 12 -1
South Asia 7 7 0 <---- NO CHANGE
Middle East and North Africa 9% 9% 0 <---- NO CHANGE
East Asia 13% 15% 2 <---- INCREASE
bryanlarsen 19 hours ago [-]
Looks like Matthew Yglesias's dream of 1 billion Americans is impossible now.
rayiner 18 hours ago [-]
"1 billion Americans" is different than "filling America with 1 billion people." Decades from now, people like Yglesias will be living in the wreckage of their idealistic beliefs about nationhood and they'll be like "but true mass immigration has never been tried."
js8 19 hours ago [-]
How can people today even think they can "move to the U.S. permanently"? U.S. is even considering stripping citizenship from its own citizens. It's very impermanent.
binklee 19 hours ago [-]
Shows a lot what Europe thinks of the US. I'm surprised though that people from South Asia who would like to move permanently to another country also have a low vote for the US.
arjie 19 hours ago [-]
Anglophone and still capable economy with pretty strong mobility for knowledge workers. It’s a no-brainer. No other place offers this. China is more dynamic an economy but you’ll be pretty second-class there as a S. Asian based on the experiences of my friends who work there.
Aurornis 19 hours ago [-]
The European Union desire to migrate to the US went from 7% to 6%. The article mentions two countries were ranked higher:
> Within the European Union, Spain, at 11%, and Switzerland, at 8%, rank ahead of the U.S., at 6%.
So I think this really shows that EU members don’t have a lot of desire to migrate anywhere. The drop from 7% to 6% is inline with the global decrease in migration desire. I don’t think there’s as much to read into this about sentiment change toward the US.
emaro 18 hours ago [-]
And in other regions the desire to migrate to the US went down a lot more than in Europe. So this is not about what Europeans think about the US at all.
Although recent US international politics did stain the US image in Europe substantually. Just the most recent betrayal against Ukraine is a good example of why.
honeybadger1 19 hours ago [-]
they all want to be here or there would be no issue and no news every time the government tried to make entry and visas more difficult
ben_w 18 hours ago [-]
I'm a "they", and no we don't all want to be in the USA.
In fact, many of us are exactly as hubristic about our nations' popularity as you seem to be about the popularity of the US.
Before I left the UK (for Germany), I encountered people who seemed absolutely convinced that all 8 billion humans would move to the small, moist, sheep-filled rock if not for even stronger enforcement of immigration policies.
The US may be physically larger than the UK, but no, the world doesn't want to move to you. We don't want to regularly share the road with what are, by our standards, monster trucks; nor do we want the 2nd; nor strip malls; nor the nuclear arsenal. Many of us have our own alternatives to Mount Rushmore, to the Statue of Liberty, etc., and don't really care about yours.
Quite a lot don't care for the language as spoken and written in the USA, and for a long time that has even included British people, "two nations divided by a common language".
drnick1 18 hours ago [-]
Do you realize that half of India would move to the USA if they could and turn this place into a third world country. Isn't that obvious?
ben_w 16 hours ago [-]
नहीं, सर्वे भी देख लो
> In 2025, 15% of adults worldwide who say they would like to move permanently to another country name the U.S. as their preferred destination
and eyeballing the graphs, only about 10% of residents of Asian countries have any desire to move at all.
profsummergig 18 hours ago [-]
Only half?
sailingparrot 19 hours ago [-]
Love the amount of nuanced thinking and deep analysis that went into that comment
honeybadger1 18 hours ago [-]
just as much thought that has gone into people who positioned the opposite in the comments like that we suck and we should feel bad. it's just the opposite, we are great and we do great things, and people wish to participate in our greatness.
there is good and bad, i believe we are much more good and it's exactly why there is a wait list for entry longer than anyone's list of political grievances that boil down to mostly hyperbole with a short list of few real concerns
empath75 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
honeybadger1 18 hours ago [-]
It is completely your right to hate American excellence until a political figure you agree with is at the helm.
cyanydeez 19 hours ago [-]
"even though I beat my wife, I know, deep down, she wants to be here; why else would she always come back"
such an interesting perspective.
pessimizer 18 hours ago [-]
Random person born in random country is the wife in this metaphor? Sounds like a stalker.
honeybadger1 19 hours ago [-]
honestly, that's a terrible response.
rglover 18 hours ago [-]
It's a disaster here. It should be of zero surprise that people don't want to move here (let alone invest their future).
Izikiel43 18 hours ago [-]
It’s not, however immigrating legally is very hard due to the high demand.
Daishiman 19 hours ago [-]
Not just that but the people who change their opinion the most are generally those with excellent education and job opportunities elsewhere.
19 hours ago [-]
BadBadJellyBean 15 hours ago [-]
Even before Trump I could never imagine moving to the US and I have dual citizenship. You will pry my 30 days of vacation, missing concept of sick days, socialized healthcare out of my cold dead hands.
Trump only made it worse.
mikkelam 18 hours ago [-]
idunno. Nothing is ever gonna replace america.
America's cultured is ingrained in everyone. You have 2-3 more runs of trumpian presidents before it's gg
drnick1 18 hours ago [-]
Good, very good.
cmiles8 18 hours ago [-]
Like most things there’s broader context:
1. The US is still the top desired place to move by a large margin
2. There a variety of evidence to suggest that this also splits by tier of talent. For the best of the best the desire to move to the US remains strong. What has clearly attenuated is the lower tiers, with the crackdown on H1Bs and other areas there’s clearly fewer lower tier talent folks flooding in. That’s impacting tech masters degree mill type folks. but ultimately not a terrible thing as that system has been broken for a while.
testbjjl 19 hours ago [-]
It’s always good when we all don’t want the same things. I expect to see a lot more doom and gloom headlines of the midterm elections go as predicted, but anticipate quality of life increasing for us non billionaires as well.
cadamsdotcom 9 hours ago [-]
Numbers quoted without context.
What if it now competes among a greater number of countries, or the low is because other countries got better, not because the US got worse?
But hey, it drives the clicks!
ck2 19 hours ago [-]
Heritage Foundation wants to reduce the US population by 11 million people by 2029
imaging what's going down just before/during the Olympics which I am 99% certain will be boycotted by then
PorciiVorbesc 19 hours ago [-]
Can I have your spot then?
onraglanroad 19 hours ago [-]
Yes, I could easily get into the USA (or indeed practically anywhere in the world) but I live in Scotland because that's what I prefer.
You fire ahead and take my spot.
PorciiVorbesc 18 hours ago [-]
Passport and visa please, thanks.
onraglanroad 18 hours ago [-]
"Papers please."
That used to be a joke about the Soviet Union. Perhaps before your time.
PorciiVorbesc 17 hours ago [-]
What does this have to do with it?
bigyabai 19 hours ago [-]
Depends, how long are you willing to stay in detainment?
nxm 19 hours ago [-]
0, assumed he went through the legal process.
verdverm 19 hours ago [-]
That will be $100k please and thank you
bluecalm 18 hours ago [-]
USA makes it very hard to immigrate legally so probably many people don't express "desire" to immigrate there because that's not even an option for them.
SamDc73 18 hours ago [-]
Gallup's question is: "Ideally, if you had the opportunity, would you like to move permanently to another country?"
bradlys 12 hours ago [-]
This makes more sense because moving to a place like Japan permanently (from what I know) is very difficult. Or, at least, moving there and getting to act like a real citizen. Unless you marry a Japanese person, I don't think your children are ever considered Japanese citizens either. (And same with their children and so on)
nailer 18 hours ago [-]
I moved recently. I previously moved to the UK fifteen years ago. It's great here, people are very welcoming to immigrants and have been kind all over NY, Georgia, and Miami.
- NY has a great tech scene, it feels slightly healthier than SF but FAR more ambitious and supportive than London does. Also London investors are incredibly flaky.
- Street violence is an issue (in NYC), but phone theft and terrorism are not.
- My gym has a good out-of-the-gym social scene which has made it easy to meet people.
mizzao 10 hours ago [-]
NYC is a much different feeling than the rest of the US. 70% of residents are either first- or second-gen immigrants, and you can find people from every corner of the world here. It's one of the few places where the American ideal yet lives on.
Izikiel43 18 hours ago [-]
Having dealt with the us immigration system, and even in an easy case, it’s not an easy thing to do.
Hopefully people get more informed on how hard it is to apply and don’t waste their lives on it, as a lot of them won’t get legal residency, or it might take several long years.
And this applies in general to most countries, specialized educated professionals are wanted, not poor people.
dominotw 19 hours ago [-]
a big maga contingent wanted high interest rates to lower desire to for immigration into country also rollback lax visa and dei policies.
they got their wish.
caaqil 19 hours ago [-]
> U.S. still top destination as desire to migrate falls worldwide
> But despite these changes, many people worldwide — an estimated 900 million — would like to move, including about 134 million who would prefer to move to the U.S.
Important caveats.
profsummergig 18 hours ago [-]
The sample size was 100.
binlog 19 hours ago [-]
The irony is that restrictive immigration policies designed to keep out "low quality" immigrants are only going to stop the flow of skilled ones who have better options at home or elsewhere. People who are desperate will continue to immigrate no matter what.
JuniperMesos 18 hours ago [-]
Skilled immigrants are so often loyal to immigrants as a class, or to other people from their specific foreign religious or ethnic group, that keeping them out of the country even though they have high value on paper is still worthwhile so that they don't have the opportunity to advocate for immigration policies that are more friendly to further low-quality immigrants.
nadermx 18 hours ago [-]
Perhaps for once people realize its a shit show everywhere
greenchair 19 hours ago [-]
still on top, nuff said.
phendrenad2 19 hours ago [-]
Multi-polar something something
pessimizer 18 hours ago [-]
More of this. There seems to be a lot of resentment that people dream of living in the US all their lives, but then when they finally arrive the red carpet sometimes isn't rolled out for them, and many people aren't happy they're here.
It's better for them to lose the fantasy. It's a brain drain on the world, and an excuse for the US not to educate its own properly.
autoexec 17 hours ago [-]
It's clear that US has no interest in educating its citizens properly. At least not the masses. The wealthy will continue to privately educate their children while the rest of country has to be kept ignorant enough to keep voting against their own interests.
ballmerpoint 18 hours ago [-]
> In the U.S., notably, the heightened desire to move abroad is concentrated among women younger than 45. In 2025, 40% of U.S. women aged 15 to 44 say they would move permanently to another country if they had the opportunity, up from 10% in 2014. The trend first rose sharply in 2016 and continued across multiple years, suggesting a broader shift in outlook rather than a short-term political effect.
Bad news for the conservative natalists, quiverfulls, and etc.
arthursilva1041 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
honeybadger1 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
jyounker 18 hours ago [-]
People who hate the US generally hate the US because of specific things the US government has done.
19 hours ago [-]
verdverm 19 hours ago [-]
it's more because of statements like this
and when the world's richest country, that built the very liberal democratic order of The West, turns around and tells all of its friends, "you've been ripping us off!"
pessimizer 18 hours ago [-]
> "you've been ripping us off!"
Funny that the truth is the opposite. We have a comically massive trade deficit. But we're not actually friends; you just want some of that money. The "friendship" is that we rip off your countries, your elites sell your countries away piece by piece, and then they send their spoiled children to the US to get on the other side of the trade, too.
The US doesn't owe immigrants any more than they owe the people who don't have the means or desire to bail on their own countries. In fact, the emigrants have usually already gotten their share. It's the people left at home who need the help (or need the US to stop "helping.")
verdverm 17 hours ago [-]
I'm an American. God forbid we help our neighbors and those less fortunate as the wealthiest and most prosperous country in history. Would not the greatest country do these kinds things? Would such a country belittle it's friends and prefer deals with our adversaries?
How about we focus on dealing with the oligarchy in our country instead of blaming immigrants for everything? It's the elites across both parties and corporations who are doing this to us, and dividing us, the people.
What Happened to Liberal Democracy | The Tyranny of Meritocracy - two books with good ideas for how we start to undo this mess we find ourselves in
mrstumpy 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
heybales 19 hours ago [-]
In other news, desire to move permanently FROM the U.S. at a new high.
weberer 19 hours ago [-]
Its actually down slightly from its peak in 2024 according to the article.
drnick1 18 hours ago [-]
Rosie O'Donnell hasn't been missed by anyone. Feel free to follow her.
EcommerceFlow 18 hours ago [-]
This is excellent for us Americans. As LLMs and Robotics scale, the need for immigration will continue to drop.
> U.S. still top destination as desire to migrate falls worldwide
So the US is still the top destination by a wide margin. Part of the decline is attributable to a global drop in desire to migrate at all.
Recent politics is undoubtedly part of it, but if you assumed the US had fallen behind other countries you should probably read the article.
The average worldwide is down but that downward trend is largely due to the US. Canada and Japan are up and most other countries are about the same. UK is the only other own with a notable downward trend
US market share of global desire to migrate
2007 - 24%
2016 - 20%
2017 - 18%
2025 - 15%
Canada is #2 and moved up from 7% to 9%
2025 per capita, Est. Would-Be Migrants / Country Population, top 4 + US and UK:
Canada: 2.18
Australia: 1.47
Saudi Arabia: 1.17
Spain: 0.82
UK: 0.58
USA: 0.44
2025 per GDP, Est. Would-Be Migrants / Nominal GDP, top 5:
USA: $85.4k
Australia: $65.8k
Germany: $55.7k
Canada: $54.2k
UK: $52.6k
Most other countries on the chart didn’t change much because going from 4% to 5% is in the noise.
The US started at a whopping 24% and ended at a number that’s still significantly higher than other countries.
As I said, politics played a role for sure, but when I read the comments before the article I expected to read about the US falling out of favor relative to other countries, which it has not.
Because every H1B who planned to migrate to the US but got locked out by Trump is choosing Canada as the next best thing. That makes Canada sloppy seconds after the US, not more desirable than the US, assuming everything else being equal.
If you look at the chart most of the decline happened before the Brexit vote, let alone Brexit. Since the brexit vote it has dropped from 5% to 4% which is not precipitous.
My niece was thinking of working in Ireland for a while and I told her that if she happened to stay for 5 years she could get an EU passport. It's a valuable thing.
As a first generation (just - I was six years old!) immigrant I am quite happy my parents (my dad's employer gave him a choice) picked the UK over the US, and I cannot think of anywhere that would be better for me.
Moving countries has hard - having done it a few times. Even going to places where you known people and know the system.
Looking at the rise of parties like AfD, National Rally, PVV etc. the EU is far more hostile to non-white immigrants.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jun/24/nearly-quar...
Its generally nothing to do with religion, apart from hostility to Islam. Its not hostility to non-Christians, its hostility to Muslims. What those sorts of people say about Muslims is very similar to what they said about Jews a 100 years ago, or about Catholics 200 years ago. Neither of those prejudices has entirely died (I read an article by a Labour politician whose colleagues used to ask whether he was waiting for orders from Rome) but its at nothing like historical levels.
Mostly talk of religion is a cover for talking about skin colour. Its also an attempt to import American style "Christian" nationalism which i think is going to fail because the UK does not have the same history, culture, or religion as the US: https://pietersz.co.uk/2026/10/christian-nationalism.
A lot of these people are "cultural Christians" which pretty much anyone can be. The range of "cultural Christian" goes from Richard Dawkins to Anders Breivik!
Reform polls higher than Restore but it turned down Elon Musk's money because it came with the condition that they allow the best known of the Unite the Kingdom leaders to join their party. Either it is to their credit, or they realise that voters would turn against them if they let him in.
The second Unite the Kingdom rally was less than half the size of the first: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/16/tommy-robin... My guess is that people went to the first as an anti-illegal immigration and asylum seeker protest and and as people have realised the real aims of the people behind it support has dropped.
What about this? https://www.dw.com/en/italy-thousands-attend-anti-and-pro-mi...
EU nations accepted millions of non-white migrants, especially post 2015 open border policy.
When living in a country that had a very high per capita emigration rate, I realised a lot of people had a very rosy tinted view of the rest of the world and their prospects there.
1. Legal immigrants - mostly need skills or money (sometimes family ties or ancestry). They are mostly better off building a better life where they are.
2. Illegal immigrants - still need money (for people smugglers), get the worst jobs once they get there, and its a huge risk. They are also usually better off building a better life where they are.
Unless fleeing war or severe persecution most people are better off where they are these days.
Also, as someone in another comment said, the world is wealthier as a whole and there are more opportunities in many places.
I did the math on the latter. Higher numbers mean more migration per km² of land, I made US 100% to allow easy relative comparison:
Now we can also do the same for per capita (which is a bit paradoxical, because that means bigger populations will get a lower index, but migration increases populations...), but that tells us where the smallest populations have to deal with the biggest number of migrants: As you can see the US is very close to the bottom on both of those lists.Now if we wanted to make that even fairer it would probably be good to have a metric of migrants per km of built-on or habitable land or something to avoid skewing results for countries with a whole lot of inhabitable nothing in some areas. Canada and Australia are on the bottom in the first list (big countries with little population in comparison to their size) while they are on top in the per capita list.
As you can see it isn't as easy as it seems at first. What do we want to look at? Is it about land use? Is it about how big of a fraction is migrants? Or do we want to look at migrant per USD of GDP to see who would have the best/worst capacity to support migrants? Maybe we want to look at job markets?
All of that changes as you want to change the story, but what does not make sense is to just use absolute numbers based on national borders.
That's not what the article suggests at all.
The drop is calculated only from those who want to move.
Yes, it's still #1, but the drop that isn't a result of people not wanting to move. Instead, people that want to move are picking the US as the destination a lot less.
A drop in the desire to emigrate might have had a higher impact on groups who would have preferred the US, for example.
Second, if you're right, that's worse.
The concern is that smart, productive, capable people now have better alternatives.
You are clearly trying to suggest a much more specific, scurrilous interpretation.
If you look at the charts, it seems that if the US is a shithole, then Canada is twice the shit hole, and France and Germany are twice that.
In fact, it doesn’t appear that there are any non-shitholes using this metric.
I think the US should facilitate immigration by probably expanding the H1B 10x and reducing the period for a green card and also overturn Euclid v Amber and NEPA (with state level CEQA style to follow) but the reality is that even an immigration-resistant US administration is far more popular than any other country as a destination; and that’s probably simply due to the fact that it’s the one Western economy that is still dynamic despite everything.
As someone who worked in US and left it long time back, last year was the first time I could hear ambivalent views on US from my friends who work there. They are still in US as they make a lot of money but have started to consider the alternatives.
How are people with that mentality--here for the money, but don't buy into the underlying concepts--going to affect the civic structure of the U.S.?
Here in Canada, before all this went down, the "work as a professional in the US, earn $$$$$, retire back in Canada or go back to a Canadian job with your pockets bursting with cash" was a fairly popular strategy in tech. I don't know how many people pulled it off in reality, but workers from either of our countries have/had some of the easiest pathways to working in the other one. I don't think either one is going to be very outraged at their neighbors coming over to work here.
The countries most immigrants come from have both liberals and conservatives. Immigration can’t change the long-term political balance. What it does instead is change what kind of left or right wing candidate is viable. The Bush/Romney GOP would have been wiped out in a landslide under 2024’s demographics. But Trump was able to win Nevada and rack up the margin in diverse states like Texas and Florida with stupid policies like “no taxes on tips.” Theatrics, handouts, and patronage is how politics works in most countries immigrants come from. Trump can play that game, the old Anglo GOP couldn’t.
Over time, American politics will more begin to resemble the politics of the places the immigrants are coming from, with guys like Mamdani instead of Carter and Trump instead of Reagan.
For reference, I've for many years (35) lived in and around NYC/Brooklyn/New Jersey, LA, Las Vegas and Miami proper. Europe, I've been to Berlin, London, Paris, Strasbourg, Munich, and some I forget. It's a night and day difference and it baffles me that someone from there would want to live here. Cheers.
If you take a good SWE salary in Munich (example 80k), and compare it to an average/solid software shop in the states that gives 200k. Expenses can comparatively quadruple and you will still have much more at the end of the month to do with as you please. You can live in so many places in the states where this salary is realistic. But only a handful of places in Europe even have salaries that could come close as a concept. Switzerland that could get you there has even higher expenses and even there only FAANG offers such salaries.
And outside of software, doctors in the states make many multiples compared to European ones. Most blue collar workers make multiples, lawyers make multiples, pretty much any job you take you can make much more. I agree that life is better in Europe and I'd choose to live here 9/10 times, but that's down to mentality and the fact there's a reason we're less productive than you.
Many jobs pay really well in the US, but many more pay poorly. The top 10% are responsible for ~50% of consumer spending, and the typical American is not that well off.
Germany, like many other European countries, relies more on exports and less on domestic demand than the US. As a natural consequence, its immigration policy favors skilled immigration to keep top wages down. If the wages grow too quickly, your exports become more expensive than those of your competitors, and the entire economy suffers. And when the economy grows, it's better to use the surplus to raise typical wages than top wages.
Or at least that's how I am interpreting the parent post...
One of the worst ideas I've ever seen, and completely out of touch with American workers.
From the graphs, it seems that knowledge of our non-dairy pavement is filtering through to other countries. But a longer term graph would be nice; I'd like to see how the indicator reacted over more economic cycles, but I know some visa categories that had been oversubscribed on opening day for years started staying open for most of the year when the mortgage crisis hit, and I'd love to see data from previous downturns, too.
While this administration is in place I don't even want to visit, even for work purposes I refuse. Especially the toxic manosphere culture at the moment.
I've lived in 4 countries but the US is not one that appeals to me. They pay the most but cost of living is also huge and besides that money isn't the most important to me. I'm making about 60% of what I would make in the same role in my home country. But that's ok because I enjoy living here a lot more.
What matters to me is quality of life, and a good social welfare system so I don't have to worry.
The experience of living/traveling in the US is very different from what can be seen on social medias and forums. At least in big cities in blue states.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/03/ice-german-t...
In fact I think it would have worked out better if he hadn't been a US Citizen because they would have just sent him back and given him a lifetime entry ban or something.
Why do you think that doesn't apply to the situation he was in? He was suddenly arrested (detained anyway, so his freedom was taken from him) and he, as an activist, had contacts on his phone of other activists who would have been criminally charged, killed, or disappeared.
His own constitutionally protected activism already got him marked as a terrorist in the US. That's why he was detained. His name was on a terrorist watchlist. The Customs and Border Patrol tactical terrorism response team and an FBI Atlanta joint-terrorism taskforce officer were informed he was coming. The government has been actively working to prosecute and silence him and his fellow activists. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jun/26/trump-admini...
> Giving a duress PIN is a big choice and you have to be reasonably informed about the legal consequences of doing so in whatever jurisdiction you're in.
He was illegally denied access to a lawyer or he would have been reasonable informed.
Because he knew in advance that he would be crossing the border. If your threat model includes ensuring that US border control does not view the contents of your phone, and you're returning to the US after an international flight, then you need to take appropriate precautions (i.e. wiping your phone beforehand rather than after they've taken it). It's not like the police suddenly raided his house in the middle of the night. Obviously I feel bad for the guy, but if he had acted differently he would not have been criminally charged.
The Trump administration is perfectly happy to violate the rights of American citizens too. Nobody is safe right now.
I remember when I went to Australia, I could stay a year but American backpackers only 6 months because that's what Australians got in the US.
"Accepting" is different from "tolerating with a few instances of hate crimes and likelihood of incarceration". You have to include non-white people in the acceptance criteria.
And which of those are as desirable for foreigners to come work in, as the US?
It's easy to be super open to migration when you have little migration to begin with and the one you get is mostly wealthy foreigners coming to invest/buy properties and vacation/retire/remote-work there.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/canada-adding-new-ex...
Thinks they want (where "think" is doing some massive heavy lifting because it's simply factual that wide swaths of voters have demonstrably exercised very little "thinking".)
Opinions among actual Americans vary. Some blue states even issue driver licenses to unauthorized immigrants on the basis that it's better for them to pass the driving test than to drive without taking the test.
The truth is that there is nothing inherently superior or more "orderly and developed" about the people of Japan and China than the black Americans, Hispanics, and other Asians in this country. Culture and class vary significantly within populations and nations, even small island nations like Japan. US Immigration policies have selected for unrepresentative samples from certain populations though. The costs and accessibility of getting to the US from somewhere like Mexico are nothing at all like they are for people in countries on the far side of the Earth. Other distortions arise due to circumstance and need, for example refugees and manual laborers more frequently come from some regions, and very rarely from others.
There's no point in trying to dig too deeply for gems of logic and consistency when it comes to racist ideology though. You can only be left disappointed.
undocumented and here temporarily (most people oppose this),
undocumented and here permanently (the left is split on this, the right is mostly against it),
documented and here temporarily (most people are fine with this, especially tourists),
documented and here temporarily with an option to become permanently (many oppose this because it's impacting employment, especially with H-1B abuse),
documented and here permanently with no intention of becoming citizens (many people on the right don't like this for assimilation reasons),
documented and here permanently an a path to citizenship (most people support this except the extreme right),
former immigrants who are now citizens (nearly everyone supports these people).
The problem is that all of this is put under a single umbrella called "immigration," but it includes so many sub-issue like rule of law and assimilation preferences that you can't have a serious debate on it.
https://www.project2025.observer/
They want a Autocratic Theocracy AKA God's Chosen One-ocracy (and take a wild guess at which demographic gets to decide who the chosen one is...)
This is also the most important political question in the US right now. Are the people still sovereign?
"Deporting all immigrants who are here illegally" was polling at 55% approve/45% disapprove as recently as July.
There was opposition to Noem’s theatrics. But it seems like Mullen’s quieter approach has taken the heat off and most of the focus now is on the shit inflation and Iran war.
You'd be surprised to learn that ICE is quite popular. For example 73% of Republicans approve of the job ICE is doing --- see page 14 of this NPR/PBS/Marist poll: https://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/NPR...
The only ethical way to do it is better security at the border and making legal immigration and visits much easier. You can’t just snatch people who are established in communities and put them into camps without leading to a thoroughly justified moral outrage.
Our current president has intentionally created a system designed to be cruel, brutal, and unfair because his supporters get off on it and because every abuse of power makes his next abuse easier, but even though some people will inevitability be upset when the illegal immigrants in their lives are removed from the country, it doesn't have to be a complete moral atrocity to enforce immigration law. The way it's being done today is a choice.
These people knowingly and deliberately broke the law, and they continue to deliberately elude enforcement. The problem is that we've been too soft on enforcement, leading to millions upon millions of them assuming they are exempt from the law.
Most people from developing to developed probably still are interested. Their interests may have shifted to better visa opportunities.
But those from developed to developed has probably decreased cause of job security problems globally in developed countries. People probably don’t want to leave their current state in this market.
The developing to developing is probably the same.
So far getting green cards is almost closed for software engineers. Because to get it from H1B/L1 visas, you need to pass a market test, but it isn't possible right now. So, the only available option is EB2-NIW, but it is a lottery. I only hope that companies will start to hire more outside the US
We are however in very different times. In the 2010s, they couldn't employ enough software engineers. Now? There's permanent layoffs. Every year all these companies now lay off 5-10% of their employees. It's become the "up or out" culture of Corporate America.
The only reason they do this is to suppress wages. They want to claw back the gains of the 2010s. Every sufficiently sized company reaches a point where the only way they can continue to grow profits is to cut costs and raise prices. Labor is a huge cost.
Despite supposed protections, it's clear that people on work visas get paid less. There's an inherent lack of mobility and the consequences of getting fired or laid off and not being able to find a job are extreme: depending on what type of visa you have you may have to leave the country within as little as 10 days (but typically 60).
So I think companies should lose their ability to not only sponsor green cards but also hire nonresidents if they engage in layoffs for a certain period. I'm thinking 2-3 years.
The employment situation for software engineers is now dire, unlike a decade ago, so it actually makes sense to curtail foreign employment.
I have to imagine that their sentiment is not unique.
X.1 2024 2025 Change
% % (pct. pts.)
Southeast Asia 18% 12% -6
Latin America and the Caribbean 33% 28% -5
Australia-New Zealand 11% 7% -4
Sub-Saharan Africa 27% 24% -3
Northern America 4% 2% -2
European Union 7% 6% -1
Former Soviet States 13 12 -1
South Asia 7 7 0 <---- NO CHANGE
Middle East and North Africa 9% 9% 0 <---- NO CHANGE
East Asia 13% 15% 2 <---- INCREASE
> Within the European Union, Spain, at 11%, and Switzerland, at 8%, rank ahead of the U.S., at 6%.
So I think this really shows that EU members don’t have a lot of desire to migrate anywhere. The drop from 7% to 6% is inline with the global decrease in migration desire. I don’t think there’s as much to read into this about sentiment change toward the US.
Although recent US international politics did stain the US image in Europe substantually. Just the most recent betrayal against Ukraine is a good example of why.
In fact, many of us are exactly as hubristic about our nations' popularity as you seem to be about the popularity of the US.
Before I left the UK (for Germany), I encountered people who seemed absolutely convinced that all 8 billion humans would move to the small, moist, sheep-filled rock if not for even stronger enforcement of immigration policies.
The US may be physically larger than the UK, but no, the world doesn't want to move to you. We don't want to regularly share the road with what are, by our standards, monster trucks; nor do we want the 2nd; nor strip malls; nor the nuclear arsenal. Many of us have our own alternatives to Mount Rushmore, to the Statue of Liberty, etc., and don't really care about yours.
Quite a lot don't care for the language as spoken and written in the USA, and for a long time that has even included British people, "two nations divided by a common language".
> In 2025, 15% of adults worldwide who say they would like to move permanently to another country name the U.S. as their preferred destination
and eyeballing the graphs, only about 10% of residents of Asian countries have any desire to move at all.
there is good and bad, i believe we are much more good and it's exactly why there is a wait list for entry longer than anyone's list of political grievances that boil down to mostly hyperbole with a short list of few real concerns
such an interesting perspective.
Trump only made it worse.
America's cultured is ingrained in everyone. You have 2-3 more runs of trumpian presidents before it's gg
1. The US is still the top desired place to move by a large margin
2. There a variety of evidence to suggest that this also splits by tier of talent. For the best of the best the desire to move to the US remains strong. What has clearly attenuated is the lower tiers, with the crackdown on H1Bs and other areas there’s clearly fewer lower tier talent folks flooding in. That’s impacting tech masters degree mill type folks. but ultimately not a terrible thing as that system has been broken for a while.
What if it now competes among a greater number of countries, or the low is because other countries got better, not because the US got worse?
But hey, it drives the clicks!
imaging what's going down just before/during the Olympics which I am 99% certain will be boycotted by then
You fire ahead and take my spot.
That used to be a joke about the Soviet Union. Perhaps before your time.
- NY has a great tech scene, it feels slightly healthier than SF but FAR more ambitious and supportive than London does. Also London investors are incredibly flaky.
- Street violence is an issue (in NYC), but phone theft and terrorism are not.
- My gym has a good out-of-the-gym social scene which has made it easy to meet people.
Hopefully people get more informed on how hard it is to apply and don’t waste their lives on it, as a lot of them won’t get legal residency, or it might take several long years.
And this applies in general to most countries, specialized educated professionals are wanted, not poor people.
they got their wish.
> But despite these changes, many people worldwide — an estimated 900 million — would like to move, including about 134 million who would prefer to move to the U.S.
Important caveats.
It's better for them to lose the fantasy. It's a brain drain on the world, and an excuse for the US not to educate its own properly.
Bad news for the conservative natalists, quiverfulls, and etc.
and when the world's richest country, that built the very liberal democratic order of The West, turns around and tells all of its friends, "you've been ripping us off!"
Funny that the truth is the opposite. We have a comically massive trade deficit. But we're not actually friends; you just want some of that money. The "friendship" is that we rip off your countries, your elites sell your countries away piece by piece, and then they send their spoiled children to the US to get on the other side of the trade, too.
The US doesn't owe immigrants any more than they owe the people who don't have the means or desire to bail on their own countries. In fact, the emigrants have usually already gotten their share. It's the people left at home who need the help (or need the US to stop "helping.")
How about we focus on dealing with the oligarchy in our country instead of blaming immigrants for everything? It's the elites across both parties and corporations who are doing this to us, and dividing us, the people.
What Happened to Liberal Democracy | The Tyranny of Meritocracy - two books with good ideas for how we start to undo this mess we find ourselves in